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The Experts in the Room podcast explores the evolving worlds of customer experience, retention and data with some of the leading minds in some of the fastest-growing and most competitive industries in the world.
To listen to episode four, The US Sports Markets, featuring Siska Concannan, co-founder and CMO of Affiliated Sportsfans, click here. Alternatively, you can read the full transcript below.
00:00:06:24 – 00:00:31:04
Will
I’m Will Hansen and welcome to the Experts in the Room podcast brought to you by Xtremepush. In this series, we chat with some of the leading minds working in the customer experience, retention and data space in some of the most competitive and fastest-growing industries in the world. In this episode, U.S. Players I spoke with U.S. sports betting and gaming guru Siska Concannan, co-founder and chief marketing officer at Affiliated Sports Fans.
00:00:31:11 – 00:00:43:16
Will
We talk about the U.S. sports market and fan trends and how brands can get a real grasp of lifetime value. I looked forward to this one and it did not disappoint. Enjoy.
00:00:46:20 – 00:01:05:01
Will
Welcome to the podcast, Siska Concannan. From affiliated sports fans. Excited to kick this off with you today and dig into your expertise in and around. The US sports betting and gaming market and where it currently stands and what you guys are up to. So thanks for coming on board.
00:01:05:03 – 00:01:06:21
Siska
No, I appreciate it. It’s great to be here.
00:01:07:05 – 00:01:30:21
Will
And it’s finally a great takeover from the Antipodeans today with two Aussies. So I’m sure a lot of our listeners spread across the world will have to work down through our slang with a little bit of that so we might have to post up. We might have to post up a post-podcast reference card for everyone in case we get off-topic, which is probably highly likely, I think.
00:01:31:12 – 00:01:42:13
Siska
Yeah. Actually, my last team when I was at Penn, they on my last day gave me, an ossuary of all the Aussie slang that they learnt from me.
00:01:43:01 – 00:02:21:03
Will
Yeah. Nice. Seems, yeah. We cop it from all angles. So it is pretty funny, but yeah, it usually goes across quite well. So, Siska, I’d love to do a brief intro to your background, particularly in the SBG market, where, where you’ve kind of spent your time and then obviously we’ll talk very deeply about what you’re doing at the moment with affiliated sports fans, ASF in the States and just get a little broad spectrum of maybe some of your experience and then we’ll dig into some of the real specifics around what you’re seeing within the market, some of the gaps, the challenges, the opportunities.
00:02:21:13 – 00:02:27:13
Will
So on and so forth. So maybe the 30-second window dressing of Siska and SPG would be awesome.
00:02:28:06 – 00:02:59:18
Siska
Yeah. So I started my online gambling career actually in London. I made the typical antipodean trek from, Australia to London and, really wanted to get immersed in tech and coming from Australia we’re coming out of the womb gamblers. So it seemed like the perfect fit for a tech provider in, in the gambling space.
00:03:00:01 – 00:03:26:13
Siska
So I was in the marketing team for a company called Gan that was online, essentially a casino provider. So they developed the technology in which online casinos could be housed. And we were an internal agency for our clients. So at this time when I joined online, Casino had just launched in the US.
00:03:27:09 – 00:03:57:19
Siska
It was around 2014, and 2015, and it was very new to most of the market if not all. The market in the US was controlled by overseas interests, including overseas resources because there wasn’t anyone in the market that had much experience in this space. So we effectively ran the online operation for these bricks and mortar casinos. We also had operations in Australia as well as Europe.
00:03:57:19 – 00:04:33:06
Siska
So from my time again I worked my way up to Global Head and was brought over to the US in 2017, just before PASPA was repealed for sports betting and set up regulated and free-to-play teams across the US in online gambling. So we had probably, about by the time I left Gan, I was running about 14 or 15 online gambling operations and a sportsbook as well.
00:04:33:06 – 00:05:17:07
Siska
I left Gan then to run all the marketing for Penn Interactive, which was the online subsidiary of what is now Penn Entertainment, and this was just before they announced the Barstool Sports deal in which they went into an acquisition of Barstool Sports and effectively took on the brand for the sports betting app. So my role was to effectively run the end-to-end marketing strategy for our sports betting app, along with our horse race betting app, Hollywood Races, as well as the online casino and free-to-play sports and free-to-play casino apps.
00:05:17:07 – 00:05:58:11
Siska
So that kind of brings me up to the point at which in November of last year I decided to leave that post and start my own company along with two other veterans of the industry in the US. And we started affiliated sports fans, which was essentially brought together by myself and as I said, another veteran in the online gaming, gambling and online sports space and sports ticketing space, as well as another partner that was running an adult social sports league.
00:05:59:10 – 00:06:33:15
Siska
So in the US, unlike Europe or the UK, at least from my experience, and maybe also unlike Sorry, there’s my little puppy in the background. And unlike possibly Ireland in the US, you had these leagues that effectively adults, non-professionals or sports players that were probably once talented in high school and college want to continue their love of their sport and join an adult rec league.
00:06:34:20 – 00:07:05:09
Siska
And these adult recreational leagues around the US can be as small as 5000 active adult sports players or members up to our largest database of about 150,000. So huge, huge, huge companies around the U.S. These are the sports leagues, nonprofessional, just fun sports leagues. And so we did exclusive partnerships with all these or the majority of these sports leagues across the US.
00:07:06:09 – 00:07:38:20
Siska
And we decided to be the exclusive rights partner for the category of sports betting and the category of fantasy and similar similar type industries. And we effectively run the marketing program for this audience via all these operators in this space. And, the theory or the strategy behind it, which has been very successful to date, is we saw a gap in the industry effectively.
00:07:38:20 – 00:08:22:20
Siska
There are a lot of affiliates. There are a lot of pick-em websites as a lot of blog websites that also have an affiliation component from a financial perspective. There are a lot of other advertising mediums that are very focused on this transactional relationship in that here’s a list of operators and we have an audience that we can attempt to convert by way of doing reviews for you or by way of organically infusing you into our content or simply by way of displaying you on our website that has got, you know, X amount of million active users a month and that has been successful.
00:08:23:11 – 00:08:58:16
Siska
However, where we really saw a gap and where I particularly saw a gap in my time and why I decided to leave was because there’s a huge lack of focus on relationship marketing from acquisition through the funnel. And what we wanted to do was find an audience that was hyper loyal, these adult recreational sports leagues are hyper loyal to their clubs, they’re also incredibly interested in sports, and they’re participants themselves.
00:08:59:00 – 00:09:31:11
Siska
So we know that they actively have a love of sport, which is a great target audience for a sports betting outfit and fundamentally understand competition and are competitive. And so this was the utopian audience in which to establish a relationship marketing strategy. So unlike typical engagement platforms or typical affiliates, what we focus on is, yes, getting people through that top-of-funnel acquisition, but importantly, going beyond that.
00:09:31:20 – 00:09:59:19
Siska
And whilst we may be on an affiliate deal by way of a financial CPA model, what we focus on is bringing you into the top of the funnel and then continuing that relationship with that operator so that not only are you engaging with that operator on your first bet, but we are attempting to keep you with that operator through multiple bets, be they operator of choice for that audience.
00:09:59:19 – 00:10:28:14
Will
What an intro. Thanks for that Siska. I think it’s huge. You’ve pulled out about 20 threads that I want to pick out here because I think your evolution into where you guys are now and where sorry where you are personally now I think is intriguing, right, that you’ve spotted a gap within the market, a real need to go after this type of marketing that’s more based on kind of loyalty.
00:10:28:14 – 00:10:32:09
Will
It’s more based on behaviour. It’s really brand driven, I think, as well.
00:10:32:18 – 00:10:33:04
Siska
Yeah.
00:10:34:04 – 00:10:58:16
Will
How so? So one thing I want I want to go back to the start a little bit transitioning from casino into sports book, something that we find a lot within the industry is that while at a dressing level, a lot of the brands will have both. But even within big brands, they’re very siloed in the way that they talk about their market, their customers, and the way that they engage with their customers.
00:10:58:16 – 00:11:17:19
Will
How do you think that experience, having come from one side of the industry, obviously with Gan and then moving into Penn, moving into sports and then being able to replicate that and put it into ASF into practice? Like do you think that has helped inform what you’re seeing from a market perspective as well and how some things are different, but they’re also similar?
00:11:17:19 – 00:11:54:08
Siska
Yeah, I think, you know what, what’s important to understand, particularly in the US market, is that you know, it’s kind of like I always liken it to when you look at, especially with the big operators that are coming from Australia, the big operators that are coming from the UK and Europe and trying to get a foothold where they may be big fish in their ponds, they’re finding it difficult and in many cases either leaving in the industry or having been acquired or folded into to another big operator.
00:11:54:15 – 00:12:24:16
Siska
And I kind of liken it to say coke, right? So Coca-Cola in that, you know, you have in every single country the recipe of coke is slightly different. We can all agree that we’re fans of Coke and we like drinking Coke, but it becomes very relevant to that market and it changes to the tastes and even the advertising changes to the cultural elements of that market.
00:12:24:16 – 00:13:02:01
Siska
And it’s no different in the gambling industry in the US particularly, whether that be casino or sports betting. There are nuances in not only how you address and how you speak and how you acquire customers, but really how you retain them from simple things such as the promotional approach to messaging to just even how you look at sports and how you look at competitiveness in sports and what is the prominent focus of this audience?
00:13:02:01 – 00:13:33:21
Siska
And how do you drive through a multi-betting strategy? How do you move from single-sport bettors through to multi-sport? That is, how do you convert casino gamblers to sports bettors and vice versa, knowing that casino gamblers tend to be more profitable for operators? And also, how do you live in a world where you have very different regulatory demands based on individual states that you don’t have in other countries?
00:13:33:21 – 00:13:55:16
Siska
As you know, they can be something as big as you can’t do credit card transactions in one state, but you can in another. How do you speak at that kind of individual personalised level in a way that will resonate? And so there are real nuances in the US that you, you have to respect and you have to understand.
00:13:55:16 – 00:14:26:21
Siska
And I think it’s that deep knowledge and expertise in the US market that is critical for success and understanding that not every single product that you put out there is necessarily going to be a multi-product approach for every single player. Some products are not going to be of any interest. I mean there’s long been a focus on we must convert Sportsbet to a casino and we must convert casino bettors to sports.
00:14:26:21 – 00:14:50:03
Siska
But there is a world that exists that some are just not interested in the idea and that’s okay. But then how to do you you must have the sophistication and the MarTech embedded that, you know, how do we drive you through the funnel so we don’t lose you for periods. We don’t lose you when March Madness is over.
00:14:50:03 – 00:15:22:07
Siska
We don’t lose you when the Super Bowl ends. How do we keep you engaged so that you’re not just there for the season and gone? And if you are, how do we drive your LTVs so you’re more loyal to us? And all these strategies are imperative and the focus on those lifecycle strategies is imperative. And I think that there has been a lot of focus this year on acquisition and CPAs and what channels are working and what channels are not.
00:15:22:07 – 00:15:46:15
Siska
And I would challenge the industry to say that if you are acquiring a customer from a channel that channels working if you’re not retaining that customer, that customer’s not growing. That is a reflection of the retention strategy that needs to be focused on the MarTech that’s going to drive that value. And I think that there needs to be a shift in that understanding even within the US.
00:15:47:03 – 00:16:16:01
Will
Yeah, I think that’s interesting on the whole idea of being able to understand a customer’s journey through that whole point. And I think that within the US particularly like you’re talking about, there’s a huge focus on acquisition at the moment without that granular level sophistication in and around data and being able to understand what your customers or your players do and don’t want to do with your brand.
00:16:16:20 – 00:16:43:20
Will
A lot of that is driven, as you say, by the differences within the states about what you’re allowed to do, what you know about this, the regulatory environment, what are the differences, I imagine as well within different fanbases, different sports, different products. Do you see a difference in the way that US brands are looking at retention now?
00:16:43:20 – 00:17:04:16
Will
And do you think they’re starting to open their eyes to the idea that, geez, we need to be working with providers or third parties or building it themselves or working with brands like yourselves to be able to start to understand their full player data stack and double down on what they’re doing? There is that naivety? I wonder if that’s the right word.
00:17:04:16 – 00:17:10:23
Will
That might be too harsh, but is that slowly dissipating within the market or are you coming up against blockers with that still?
00:17:11:19 – 00:17:39:07
Siska
I think what is interesting is there are I would argue that some of the biggest players in the industry understand that. I think that there’s a huge bifurcation in these in these companies around what is the strategy. So you have a group that focuses on acquisition affiliate, then you have a group that focuses on acquisition social. Then you have a group that focuses on CRM.
00:17:39:07 – 00:18:03:22
Siska
Then you have a group that focuses on data. Then you have a group that focuses on product and this kind of merging of the minds type thing and who is controlling the strategy. From the beginning, we’re talking about marketing. The acquisition team needs to be deeply involved in what the retention team is doing and vice versa, and that doesn’t seem to be happening.
00:18:04:07 – 00:18:51:18
Siska
So inevitably what happens is, is that they look at ROI, the channel level and they base it purely on the channel versus looking at the lifecycle. So what we’re still getting is things such as we only want to work with channels that bring us high-value players and that’s very much of an unknown concept in, say, the UK, in Europe, in Australia, because the understanding is, is that again if you acquired, if you get someone to sign up and go through that tedious process in the US, place the deposit and place a bet you’ve acquired someone that, that worked that channel work.
00:18:51:18 – 00:19:18:08
Siska
Yeah. Now what you do with that person that’s on your retention marketing strategy that is on how you drive value, that is still probably not at the level of sophistication that it probably should be. And that’s not necessarily a product of the expertise of individuals, but a lot of it is in the MarTech and the third parties that they are bringing on this journey.
00:19:18:08 – 00:19:49:07
Siska
So what I mean by that is, I do appreciate that there’s a lot of brilliant MarTech out there that because of the way some of the pams are structured, because of some of the ways that the trading platforms are structured, that they’re not integrated enough to speak to each other or the work involved in that is so great that the that it’s put to the back burner it’s seen as something not very important.
00:19:49:07 – 00:20:41:22
Siska
And for years that was always the comment that we’ll get to that, it’s a marketing thing like, you know, it’s more important that we get the bets in, we get deposits and that works and blah blah blah. True. But now we’re seeing the problem with putting that on the back burner is that these marketing teams, even if they are individually, highly, highly sophisticated and expert level people, are unable to do this level of personalization at scale, unable to do channel level, relationship marketing strategies, lifecycle, relationship marketing strategies based on channel acquisition, because they don’t have the tools that- or the tools aren’t being used to the level that they could be used because this
00:20:41:22 – 00:21:12:19
Siska
investment hasn’t been taking place and marketing hasn’t been seen or that level of strategic marketing hasn’t been seen as a priority. And that’s really where again, this is why ASF was created because we know that we understand that. And so we want to provide that at the channel that we control will give you that level of personalisation at a scale that you can’t do for whatever reason or that that you’re inhibited to do.
00:21:13:08 – 00:21:39:09
Siska
We’ll create that for you, but there’s still a learning curve in that because it is so new and the industry is not used to this. And so the understanding that this is more than just an acquisition approach, this is a lifecycle approach, that’s a hill that we still have to climb because that knowledge gap is still quite prominent.
00:21:40:04 – 00:22:01:15
Will
Yeah, I think that it’s so relevant to the stuff that we see in the market as well where there’s plenty of plenty of things that brands want to do but don’t have the capacity to turn on and do, particularly for marketing teams. And we know the push and pull between product and marketing that goes on within all businesses too and probably across all verticals.
00:22:01:15 – 00:22:29:16
Will
I think it’s important to call out. But how would you and this is a bit of a hypothetical here. You’re working as a CMO or a CRM manager within an emerging sports book or an online gaming brand in the US. How are you positioning that internally to be able to make sure that marketing gets the resources and the recognition it deserves?
00:22:29:16 – 00:22:46:01
Will
But how do you go into a boardroom or a CEO level or a product level and say, look, this is the ROI that we’re going to turn around how do you get away from vanity metrics Siska? Because I think that’d be something cool for the listeners to hear from your perspective as someone that’s probably been in those types of conversations.
00:22:46:01 – 00:23:23:11
Siska
Yeah, I think this is the key and there are brilliant CMOs out there, but this is the key is to understand LTV modelling, and lifetime value modelling and understand critically what, what value, or what’s return on investment over time. Right? So what is the potential LTV of a player coming through this channel for this sport on this device this month?
00:23:24:04 – 00:23:58:01
Siska
And if you know those metrics and this is where data where you know, the CMOs or VP of marketing has to be absolute statisticians, no longer is this a creative field. This is a data-driven field. If you know those elements of your player base, you can then start to construct LTV models. That’s essentially what I did. So I had enough when I was at Penn, when I was at Gan, I had enough knowledge to understand.
00:23:58:09 – 00:24:24:21
Siska
I know that out-of-home and out-of-home TV advertising, these are all fundamentally very difficult channels to understand ROI. And in many ways, it’s very much a spray-and-pray approach. That’s all you’re doing. And it’s fundamentally a vanity poll, right? So you’re putting your name out there in a Coca-Cola strategy.
00:24:24:21 – 00:24:49:02
Siska
Again, you’re putting your name out. This is in the interest of when you think of sports betting, you think of X, Y or Z. That’s all that’s doing. Because of the true metrics of understanding, did we drive anyone from that ad? You’ll never understand unless you’re doing some level of QR codes which no one does anyway. No one goes, Oh, let me get my phone and put it up against the TV.
00:24:49:09 – 00:24:50:08
Siska
No one’s doing that.
00:24:50:12 – 00:24:53:24
Will
To make sure a marketer gets their ROI for attribution, but.
00:24:54:15 – 00:25:25:14
Siska
No one cares. No one gets promo codes on the radio ads maybe, but rarely, you know. So to fundamentally understand it, you know, the digital element of marketing is really important. And I think that you know, from my perspective, that’s where I’ve seen the most substantial ROI’s in the digital space and true ROI and so you can come up with a lot of kind of pie in the sky stats for out of home.
00:25:25:15 – 00:25:50:22
Siska
Absolutely and I’m not saying there isn’t a space for it. There is a space for it, but it’s a majority of your spending. I think that’s where the industry, this spray-and-pray approach has been the reckoning of the industry in the US. So really, to answer your question is fundamentally understanding how you develop LTV models and how you apply that against CPAs.
00:25:51:03 – 00:26:24:06
Siska
How do you apply that against channel-level CPAs? It’s not the channel that is important, it’s the CPA. And then how you drive ROI from that. What is the long-term cumulative CPA over 12 months? What is your six-month return on investment? Where is your breakeven and being able to provide that at the board level, be able to provide that at the executive level, whoever you report into and say, I know, I fundamentally know at this level of budget, we will see returns in two years?
00:26:24:06 – 00:26:53:17
Siska
In three years. I think anyone that’s seeing a return in under three years either isn’t spending effectively enough or is just fundamentally off. I think, you know, in this industry at this time with the CPAs where they are three years, three and a half years, ROI is generally seen as acceptable or good. But you have to know, you have to understand the LTV modelling and if you get that, that’s where you can win win over budget talks.
00:26:54:12 – 00:27:15:06
Will
And I think it’s a really interesting perspective for the US as well that this emerging market is so digitally led. Right? Like it’s it’s a culture that now is, you know, you’ve got the big boys that are playing with acquisition spend, essentially hedging bets on what they’re going to be able to do with their audiences as states come online.
00:27:16:08 – 00:27:48:03
Will
And as you’re saying, that’s fundamentally broken as an approach as opposed to being able to look at the retention that you’ve already got within your database. And you can see that with share prices. You can see it with how some of these guys have performed, you know, spending three or $400 Million on a Super Bowl out and not being able to prove anything off the back of it, I think is a very interesting tactic that wouldn’t potentially fly in more mature markets that exactly have that acquisition space.
00:27:48:03 – 00:28:05:04
Siska
I mean, what was it? Was it last year? This year was 800 million spent on TV. Yeah. Of a 2 billion spent. 800 million. I mean that is crazy to me when you’ve got no understanding of ROI against.
00:28:05:04 – 00:28:24:00
Will
And you have a huge shift of where consumers and players are consuming their content, which is moving away from TV. We talked about this recently on a podcast with another guest about how brands are so fixated at the top of the funnel on potentially the wrong channels.
00:28:24:13 – 00:28:24:21
Siska
Yeah.
00:28:25:03 – 00:28:33:03
Will
Without understanding that things are changing and putting the marketing budget into the right place to be able to target the players.
00:28:33:04 – 00:29:02:03
Siska
Exactly that there is a huge risk of saturation in the US market at the moment. You know, I lived it in I mean you lived it, Will in Australia, you know, I lived it in the UK. When you turn on your TV and every second ad is a gambling ad, it’s an over saturation by far. And when you go to a game and all you see is gambling companies, which also I constantly critique, I mean, they just got their logo.
00:29:02:03 – 00:29:30:12
Siska
I mean, how is that effective at all? You know, and again, I understand the mentality behind it. Again, it’s this if I’m present everywhere, people will know to bet with me. And that’s been largely successful for FanDuel and DraftKings in the US, but I think it has reached, if not already, it’s soon will reach saturation and it’s going to be the smart marketers
00:29:30:12 – 00:29:58:01
Siska
that can piggyback off that digitally and piggyback off their efforts to promote sports betting but do it in a much smarter way from a digital perspective. But really, it’s the ones that invest in this relationship marketing approach, the ones that invest in really driving value. We know you came from this channel. Therefore, we’re going to speak to you in this way because this is why we know you.
00:29:58:02 – 00:30:21:18
Siska
We acquired you via this route. So now we’re going to continue that relationship. And I know that a lot of the operators are speaking about we’re going to pull bonuses from this group because they’re all bonus centres and we’re going to invest in this group again. Like you’re not looking at the data correctly. It’s not saying we’re going to punish those users because they came in, use the bonus and left.
00:30:21:18 – 00:30:32:12
Siska
It’s why did they do that. Yeah. What are we not doing as an operation by a product, via marketing, via messaging, via value add that made them leave?
00:30:33:10 – 00:31:14:03
Will
And I think this the companies have a real opportunity as well looking at their data from a behavioural perspective in that there is the capacity now on websites and within apps to be understanding exactly what your customers are doing on your app and on that. And I think that’s a really big gap that a lot of businesses miss. It’s all good to know that person X bets on sport Y and they deposit X and they deposit X every two or three weeks but if they’re looking at content on your content page that’s telling you that they’re interested in another sport or as you say, they’re playing in a softball league, but they never bet on softball.
00:31:14:03 – 00:31:27:17
Will
Then maybe there’s something that you could be pushing to them, and understanding that. I think brands that are doing that well are the ones that are succeeding and the ones that are not are spraying and praying and picking up those people that move yet.
00:31:29:00 – 00:31:29:05
Siska
100%.
00:31:29:13 – 00:32:02:07
Will
Talking about the saturation point. The US as a market particularly from a legislation perspective, do you worry for the market in the sense that, with the way the US can move very quickly in one direction or another, in lobbying in particular around issues? You look at Australia, you look at the UK with over saturation. I think there’s a big it’s giving a big reason for the government to have pushback back on what gambling companies can and can’t do like that.
00:32:02:15 – 00:32:24:06
Will
And I think that is driven by the fact that you can’t watch sports now without watching a gambling ad like you couldn’t watch sports 20 years ago without seeing a Marlboro ad for cigarettes. The alcohol industry is in the same bind at the moment where they need to be better at picking and choosing how they’re promoting their partnerships and brands themselves that are in those relationships.
00:32:24:06 – 00:32:44:14
Will
So the football clubs, the NFL clubs, the hockey, the hockey clubs need to be careful on how they’re positioning themselves with this now, I think. Do you see that as something that will play out similarly to the European experience, or do you think that there’s more freedom of expression in America to be able to push down that advertising route?
00:32:44:14 – 00:32:49:07
Will
Or do you think brands need to be careful in what they’re doing?
00:32:49:07 – 00:33:23:04
Siska
I think you know, it’s funny, the regulation in the US when you’re on the operator side and I mean, look, I have huge, huge respect for the regulators in the US. They, you know, particularly when it launched they did look at overseas markets and almost kind of learn from from their faults. I know that the UK has had its reckoning, you know, long-stated rules that were never really looked at or changed and it came under a reckoning in the last five years and you know, in the US tried to prohibit that, tried to think of the future.
00:33:23:13 – 00:33:47:16
Siska
The problem in the US and I think this is a matter of just time that legalisation has been alive in the US is that there still is this massive us and culture here. You know, I come saying, well, you know, we come from a country where gambling is just part and parcel of being a fan.
00:33:47:16 – 00:34:13:12
Siska
And, you know, I remember I saw this story a lot in high school. We learned probability through horse race betting. Yeah, that’s how embedded it was, you know, in our culture. And so it wasn’t that it was good or bad, it was just there. And when I came to the U.S. and I would have people in the industry say, Oh, I’m a degenerate, I look at them and go, Jesus Christ, are you getting help like it was?
00:34:14:02 – 00:34:52:24
Siska
But in the US is seen as like an I’m a, I’m a gambler, you know because you’re either a degenerate or you’re fiercely against gambling and it’s very this church and state culture. And I always felt that that was high risk and that, yes, it would just be a matter of time before there’s more acceptance. But this industry is like staunch focus on gambling is bad and we’re going to tell everyone gambling is bad, but we can put all these restrictions in place so that you don’t you know, you have no responsibility of yourself around how to govern your gambling activity.
00:34:53:21 – 00:35:30:04
Siska
It is, I think, causing more police state approach versus removing it. I think the more gambling just becomes accepted like drinking. Yeah, you have regulations, you have laws, you have requirements. But it’s just part and parcel of socialisation. It’s part and parcel of festive gatherings. It’s part and parcel of some people’s lives. That’s really where gambling has to move to for it to be, I think, far less, you know, the dark side or far less this kind of hyper-vigilance.
00:35:30:22 – 00:35:38:19
Siska
You know, if there’s any wrongdoings, if there’s any kind of concerns, we’re just going to pounce on it and put in a thousand different laws against it.
00:35:39:21 – 00:36:12:14
Will
That fan engagement piece. I like the way that you talk about that because I think the industry focuses so heavily on bad actors within the playing group, as well as bad actors from the industry side on the operator side. But the majority of fans just want to be able to put on a bet. How important from what you’re doing with ASF, digging down into the leagues and understanding, you know, players’ behaviours within the leagues and harnessing that social aspect, that engagement aspect, the fan fun aspect of it.
00:36:12:24 – 00:36:38:15
Will
How much do you think that’s helping you guys kind of have actionable data that you can work with your partners on an affiliate basis and then really start to drive brand loyalty? Because I think the majority of people, when they get a good app or they get on a good website that goes, you know what, I’m not too fussed about the odds, but when I jump on, I get a cool pop-up that has a video of my favourite goal in the NFL or whatever it might be.
00:36:38:19 – 00:36:48:03
Will
How much do you think that’s where it’s going to go? And you guys are hoping that it’s going to go that way driving those loyal bases.
00:36:48:22 – 00:37:32:16
Siska
Yeah, look, I probably shouldn’t say this, but, you know, I’ve also long been a critic or critic of, you know, in this kind of drives into what you’re saying of the industry’s lack of product and UX differentiation, there isn’t any or much. Certainly, I think, you know, if you’re going to talk about apps that stand out, I would say that FanDuel has probably got the most differentiation, but a lot of it is, you know, can be replicated and, you know, it is easily replicated, but they’ve done a phenomenal job at it.
00:37:32:16 – 00:37:59:16
Siska
So kudos to them. But other than real odds or at times promotions, although I would argue the industry copies each other, there is no UX real differentiation. And that’s a problem because what you’re establishing is this no one’s loyal we know in the US on average a bettor will have about four different apps at any given time, we know that.
00:37:59:23 – 00:38:23:02
Siska
So they’re really like they might have one that they go to more often than the other. But you know, they’re either sourcing different promotions or they’re sourcing different odds or they’re sourcing, you know, who what is or they’re hedging their bets even. I shouldn’t say that, but they do. And so, you know, we know that. And so how do you establish loyalty with an audience?
00:38:23:02 – 00:38:47:04
Siska
And I think, you know, and I know it’s been in the news lately, for all their faults. But one of the greatest things, I think, that Penn Entertainment did was link themselves to an incredibly loyal database of barstool sports and that they attacked it at a community level. You know, they were the sports book of that audience.
00:38:47:13 – 00:38:52:13
Siska
We are the sports book of you. We are the sports book of the people. And that’s how they went in.
00:38:52:23 – 00:39:17:04
Will
As we wrap up, I’d love to get maybe some of your thoughts on what 2023 holds possibly for the wider industry in the US, maybe some brands to look out for or things that you think might be worth looking out for probably from a marketing perspective. And then maybe what, what’s coming down the tracks for you guys as well as a company.
00:39:17:04 – 00:39:26:13
Will
So for ASF, what are the plans for 2023? I’m sure it’ll be a smashing one for you though, Siska.
00:39:26:13 – 00:40:00:24
Siska
Yeah, I think to look, as I said, I think the brands to look out for, I do think that there are some merging or emerging brands that are coming up. It will be really interesting. I think most of them are run by international or overseas entities. I think, you know, from the operator’s perspective, that will be interesting. I think that some of the largest organisations in Australia, in the UK, have come into the US and struggled and continue to struggle.
00:40:01:08 – 00:40:35:07
Siska
So I think these new these new entities will be really interesting to watch, to see how they position themselves. I know that there is one that has invested heavily in US expertise, which is great and invested heavily in people that fundamentally have experience in this industry. I think, you know, it’s fine if you want to bring US people that know how to Sportsbet, but it’s very different if you know how to run a sports betting organisation.
00:40:35:07 – 00:41:00:00
Siska
And so I think that will be, you know, they’ll be pretty interesting to see how they go. I know that. And that’s a clutch bet and I think Tipico will be launching soon will be interesting to see how their European outfit will be interesting to see how they go once Ohio launches. I do think the launches are going to be very interesting with Massachusetts.
00:41:00:00 – 00:41:08:13
Siska
Ohio and California are off of the radar for now, but these will be interesting.
00:41:08:16 – 00:41:29:13
Will
Well, for anyone listening, I think you know who to get in contact with. If you want to dip into proper retention and LTV marketing and that’s Siska and the guys at ASF for sure. Siska has been unbelievable having you on the podcast. I think we probably could have talked for another hour or so on about four or five of those different topics.
00:41:29:19 – 00:41:49:11
Will
We did well to avoid some rabbit holes. We didn’t go too far down the legislation place and get ourselves in trouble, which is very well done for us. So now I want to thank you for coming on today. And then, of course, being an expert in what you’re doing and sharing your knowledge with Xtremepush,
00:41:49:11 – 00:41:52:10
Will
And our podcast Experts in the Room so cheers Siska and.
00:41:52:20 – 00:42:04:17
Siska
No look, thank you so much. Will, thank you Xtremepush. I can’t rate you guys highly enough. I would say being an ex-user of your product, it is the future. So I appreciate the opportunity.
00:42:05:05 – 00:42:25:08
Will
And I promise everyone we didn’t pay for that plug. But yeah, cheers Siska. Awesome.
